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Are you voting yes or no on table games?

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Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Metina on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:53 pm

I was so for it initially, but now I am torn. Seems like you can never get a straight answer.

My concerns are that the money allotted for education will be given, but that the state will pull back the funds they currently give. This is what the state of Florida did when they adopted the lottery.

Has there been any research on how this has affected other counties in WV that has adopted table games? I don't think we really compare to New Jersey, CT or Las Vegas.

-Metina
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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by tp7370 on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:00 pm

I think we would be foolish NOT to vote YES! It is a win/win for this county and community. 500-600 additional jobs will open up to Jefferson County residents. Do you know how many people out there are unemployed? As an employer in Jefferson County I am getting applications DAILY from many people well over qualified but are unemployed from layoffs. All local businesses will also prosper from additional traffic. It is a win/win not to mention the money towards education.
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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Metina on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:22 pm

This is what I absolutely hope will happen, I am just fearful that the state will take away funds that it is already giving us because we are getting the money from the gaming. Then we are left with a poor education system and with all the added issues that additional gaming can add.

I don't know for sure what will happen and only hope for the best. I just hope Charleston doesn't stab us in the back for their own gain.
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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by pamat on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:01 am

I think we should do what we did last time and vote it down. I believe it will eventually pass but the longer the interests pushing this have to wait the better deal we will get. I use to live on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi and they promised so much for the local community. At first the gambling interests did a few thing that help ease the tax burden on locals. Then within a few years everything was back to normal and the only paying jobs that materialized were minimum wage. No one I know living down there today (the locals) are currently working for or benefitting from the casinos. This is 20 years of observing what happens in the long run.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Metina on Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:12 pm

Long term vs. short term is a very good point. We asked Jim Surkamp his thoughts the other day when he was knocking on doors in the community and he brought up a very good point.

It is lots of gains now, but eventually gaming will put "their" people in all of the high ranking offices and the county will loose control of the votes. He named someone who is in office now who already works for Penn Gaming. Which way do you think she votes on everything.

He also brought up the RFID chip think that Penn will not institute here. As I understood it, these chips insure that no one is skimming off the top and that all money put in is accounted for.

It is hard for me not to vote yes for something though that is going to benefit education so much since i have a kindergartener and 2nd grader.

Still on the fence I guess.
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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by sablab on Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:53 am

Definitely voting Yes! The pros out-weigh the cons in this situation. Jefferson County is hurting. If we want this to be a growing community and nice place to live now and in the future, we need to vote Yes now. In 5 or 10 more years, it will be too late. The state has not taken any funds from CT Races and Slots yet, and they don't plan to do so with table games. We will all benefit in some way from this. I've been doing my research and it just doesn't make sense to vote No right now. The economy in this area needs a serious boost and table games would give it just that, and then some.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Mrs. Secretary on Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:12 pm

Voting NO. We have been promised money for our schools, but as soon as Charleston sees we have money coming to us, they will take away the money that we normally are entitled to. I see it happening!

How about money for the infrastructure??? Our roads CANNOT support all of the traffic that will come here. Ever been on the bridges between WV/VA/MD on a Saturday or Sunday night? Good luck with that!

What about the anticipation of more crime? Our police force cannot even look after the county as it is already. We have very few officers to begin with. They will be spread even thinner.

Get ready for a MAJOR increase in personal property taxes too. Since WE will be the ones having to support more police, change in infrastructure, etc.

So.....until the promise of our money staying in our county for our schools; CTRS starting their own police force to monitor a 5 mile radius; CTRS donating money for our roads.....FORGET IT!

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by sablab on Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:43 pm

I want to make an informed vote, so I keep asking questions and doing research.
As far how much Jefferson County gets from the earnings of CTRS, we get 14.5% directly plus we get more indirect benefits....since we are talking in the millions of dollars of here, this is not chump change. So, the more money CTRS can make with table games, the more we get. Of course Charleston gets the bulk for the entire state to benefit from...it's always been that way, that's how states work.

As far as property taxes, CTRS pays over $3,000,000 in proptery taxes every year. This is a huge offset for us individual tax payers. Without CTRS, there would be nearly a 4 million dollar gap we would all have to make up for. Also, tax rates have not gone up in over 10 years. Assessments have gone up, only recently, but not tax rates. Video Lottery funds paid 100% of the new e911 center as well as a large portion of the new judicial annex renovation. Without CTRS, our taxes would have been increased significantly to pay for these things.

There is funding in the bill for infrastructure and police, however, the statistics show that in the past 10 years the number of visitors each year to CTRS has tripled, however, the crime rate has not tripled. The sheriff's department has gone on the record to say that they get almost no criminal calls to CTRS, mostly only for fender benders in the parking lots. The police get more calls to Charles Town Middle School than they do to CTRS.
As far as traffic, the bulk of the traffic increase we have going in and out of Jefferson County every day is due to everyone living here and commuting to work in VA or MD. Maybe we can have more people working in the same county they live in if we have more jobs to offer here at home.

Early voting starts Nov. 13, so if you are voting Yes, please be sure to get out there and vote. Don't assume everyone else is voting and your vote does not count. If we want this bill to pass, we all need to place our votes.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by pamat on Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:38 am

Sablab sounds pretty informed. I have not been able to veryify the info yet but one thing I know for sure is since we moved in 7 years ago our taxes for property has increased significantly. We were paying a few hundred dollars for our propery tax now we are paying a couple thousand. We are living in same home with same vehicles and no significant changes. Bottom line we have more outflow of taxes and so have all the neighbors that we have spoken with. One thing I know for sure, casinoes and gambling organizations have the bottom line as a priority and they are only giving up what they have to so they can profit. So any illusion that they are helping the county out of the kindness of their hearts or or giving the county all the help they can is naive. Yes the gamling interests will win eventually, but just like last time I say we vote no. The sky will not fall down and we will not suffer if we make them wait another two years. I am not sure but I think the deal is a little better this time around, so why not wait another 730 days? Maybe the deal will be a little better. Also Sablab will you please give me the source of the statistics. I would like to verify the information before I accept it.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by tp7370 on Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:26 pm

80% of the CTRS traffic/Revenue comes from out of state (mostly Md, VA, DC). MARYLAND just passed the bill for slots. If we do not differentiate ourselves from Maryland, who will be getting slots, We will lose about 40% traffic which will translate into 40% less Revenue. Why would someone drive out here when they will have other gambling choices a lot closer to home VERY SOON. 40% less Revenue means......loss of jobs, loss of tourism, local business owners suffering, deficit in taxes that we the homeowners will have to make up. And ask yourself this: Do you REALLY think if we turn down this bill AGAIN that the legislature would REALLY even listen to us again to "negotiate a better deal" for the future. There are absolutely no guarentees that we would even get that chance! And why don't you research how much CTRS does really do for this county. When Jefferson Memorial Pool was going to close because of lack of funding.......who came to the rescue? CTRS did. How may TONS of food do they donate annually to the Jefferson County Missionary to held Jeff Co. needy families........TONS!
Take what we can get NOW and Vote YES!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Mrs. Secretary on Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:05 pm

Something worth reading....

http://votenotablegames.org/facts.html

I would rather not hear people say "I wish we hadn't voted YES" when they see a tax increase and increase in crime over the next several years.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by sablab on Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:00 pm

Some sources of information: www.voteyestablegames.org
www.yesforjeffersoncounty.com. I have also been a recipient of e-mails on Facebook and picked up some information there as well.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by pamat on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:07 pm

I was hoping to get a source reference that was unbiased. I have already seen the voteyestablegames.org site. I visited it before I ever participated in this forum. That site is clearly a site set up by the gambling interests, not a independent source. Relying on that site for independent verified facts is a mistake. Relying on the gambling interests to take care of us is also a slippery slope. I have seen this before on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. My town of Biloxi, home of the Casiones now ships people in to work the casinoes and like I stated in my previous contribution to this forum, no one I know now in Biloxi, Gulfport or Ocean Springs MS, benefits from the casinoes. Yes tourism adds revenue to the city coffers but the original deal is no longer on the table. Schools or being built by State and Federal funds. Also there are more pawn shops and gambling problems from the locals trying to hit it rich. I don't gamble and I know one way or the other the gambling interests always wins out. 20+ years don't lie. I would rather pay more taxes then put hope in Big Daddy Gambling taking care of us. Vote however you want. That is your right but don't convolute the converstation with pro gambling sites and pie in the sky hopes of Big Daddy Gambling paying our taxes for us.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Mrs. Secretary on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:24 pm

pamat...

check out the links in the other section that I posted in regards to the table games. There are some interesting facts regarding other towns/cities that have gotten table games and the problems that have occured there.

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I agree!..... "Big-Time"

Post by Mikel Fieler on Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:10 pm

Mrs. Secretary wrote:Voting NO. We have been promised money for our schools, but as soon as Charleston sees we have money coming to us, they will take away the money that we normally are entitled to. I see it happening!

How about money for the infrastructure??? Our roads CANNOT support all of the traffic that will come here. Ever been on the bridges between WV/VA/MD on a Saturday or Sunday night? Good luck with that!

What about the anticipation of more crime? Our police force cannot even look after the county as it is already. We have very few officers to begin with. They will be spread even thinner.

Get ready for a MAJOR increase in personal property taxes too. Since WE will be the ones having to support more police, change in infrastructure, etc.

So.....until the promise of our money staying in our county for our schools; CTRS starting their own police force to monitor a 5 mile radius; CTRS donating money for our roads.....FORGET IT!
[i]

I'm kind of new around here, but where ever anyone lives, the facts are all the same, and we need to step back and look at the concept from a neutral or objective standpoint.
The underlying motivation for acceptance for any sort of "gaming" (gambling) to be located in their community is purely emotional and psychological.
First, emotion blinds the non-participatory proponents applauding it in desperation to remedy a lack of control in their local government and it's lack of fiscal constraints.
Secondly, the psychology underlying this group are pure mental dysfunction; e.i., obsessive-compulsive disorder.
In viewing the "FOR" and "AGAINST" postings, I personally would examine the root of each proponent's motive. This could be revealing as to what type of people are living in the community.
As an afterthought, we also should be looking at the elected officials, individually, who seem to be responsible for the diversion of designated funding to other projects. Maybe, they are also proponents of gambling for other reasons , possibly financial!!
Remember, always follow the dollar!!!

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by ghoffmaster on Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:32 am

Reasons to VOTE NO!
-We may want to visit Atlantic City or Vegas, but do we want to live in that type of community?

-Businesses will thrive. Restaurants and hotels will be full - so we think. Think about "high rollers" coming in town who get their night's stay and meals comped because they wager high stakes. Those comped benefits will more than likely only only be offered to those who stay on site and eat at their restaurants. Who stands to gain....local business owners or Penn National?

-Will money go toward education? The surface answer is Yes, but regardless of what they say, the state will subsequently reduce funding by the amount of the gaming increase. Think about it – WV is not a rich state and they WILL NOT allow Jefferson County Schools to be subsidized while much poorer counties suffer. It wouldn’t be fair from a state perspective. The STATE stands to gain from VOTE YES, not the Jefferson County education system. The state will simply redistribute funding to keep things equal.

-Will there be more jobs? NO! There will be different jobs, but not more jobs. In fact, over time there may be fewer. Table gaming may add more than 500 new local jobs, but they will be entry level jobs in the food, beverage, and hotel industries- the lowest paying jobs available. The higher paying jobs (such as a dealer at about $45,000) will most likey be their own people brought in from outside the county. The current bill will also harm the horse industry. Penn National plans to cut the number of races per year and plan to bring in “Kentucky Derby Quality” horses. Fewer races and higher quality horses.... Our local horsemen cannot compete with these higher quality horses and will be driven out of business over the next few years which could seriously jeopardize local farms. So we will most likely be adding 500 minimum wage jobs and subtracting more than 3,000 better paying agricultural and horsemen jobs over the next few years.

Now, for the dirty stuff.......

-There have been too many underhanded tricks played by “Vote Yes” campaign. Jefferson County citizens who have strongly and vocally supported the “VOTE NO” effort the first go ‘round have actually been investigated by Penn National in an attempt to discredit them. I know it happened, but I’m not willing to discuss my source.

- People looking for information on the VOTE NO effort (www.votenotablegames.org) who mistakenly type in .com or .net have been deceitfully redirected to the official VOTE YES website. Try it for yourself. This is an underhanded attempt by the VOTE YES campaign and they're not fighting a fair fight!

Here are some facts about cities where table games are present. This information is all from the “VOTE NO” website listed above, which is organized by a long term county citizens – a grass roots effort you can trust. Face it, we are the ones who stand to lose.
- In the first 3 years after Atlantic City legalized gambling, it went from 50th to 1st in the nation in per-capita crime. Nevada has never dropped below 3rd.
- Crime in Atlantic City is approximately 3 times the national average, and the murder rate is twice the national average according to FBI.
- A U.S. News & World Report analysis found average crime rates in casino communities to be 84% higher than communities without casinos.

If you want more information visit the VOTE NO website - remember it's .org. You can also visit the VOTE NO headquarters located downtown on Washington Street beside Jumpin' Java. You don't even have to go in. Stats, facts, and figures are posted on the window.

Few people are voicing opposing views on this issue. Table games will more than likely be voted in. Penn National has spent a significant amount of money on advertising and putting just enough money in the community to protect their self interest. You can vote early or show up on Dec. 5th.


Last edited by ghoffmaster on Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional information)

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by ghoffmaster on Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:11 pm

I also think that it is interesting that one of Penn National's more noteworthy reasons to vote yes is that they claim to have the endorsement of the Board of Education. Sounds impressive. But I believe the number of people on the Board is a grand total of 7.

I just found out from a friend who is a school teacher in this county that Penn National surveyed all teachers to see if they could take that endorsement even farther. The results of that survey were never shared, discussed or made public. I would guess that the majority of the teachers in Jefferson County are against the gaming tables, but you won't see a word of that in print.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by Mrs. Secretary on Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:59 pm

ghoffmaster wrote:I also think that it is interesting that one of Penn National's more noteworthy reasons to vote yes is that they claim to have the endorsement of the Board of Education. Sounds impressive. But I believe the number of people on the Board is a grand total of 7.

Actually, the Board of Education consists of 5 members. The Board consists of the following people:
Pete Dougherty is the Executive Director of the U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness. Interesting, since he will benefit from the table games and their reputation for increase of homeless people in areas after table games are introduced.

Gary Kable is one of the "infamous" Kables of this county. He is a former county commissioner, so he has his hands in the pockets of other government officials. His family could also benefit from the table games.

Scott Sudduth
Marilee Dunn
Alan Sturm

Also, keep in mind that these people may have political agendas by supporting the table games.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

Post by rad6216 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:04 pm

I'm voting yes.
Our experience should be far different than other casino towns, in that our gambling will be fairly contained. I don't think crime will increase. The police chief has consistenly said crime is a nonfactor now, and I don't understand the thinking that by changing players from slots to tables will result in an increase in crime.
Lastly, I hate slots. They're boring. I have no idea how to handicap horse races, so I don't do that. But I do know how to pick red or black, and I can count to twenty one, so I hope it does pass so I have another form of entertainment.

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Re: Are you voting yes or no on table games?

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